Posted by: parallelsidewalk | May 16, 2008

IDers get nasty

It’s been common lately for creationists, largely rallying around Ben Stein’s “Expelled”, to argue that evolutionary theory in particular and science in general led to the Holocaust. I can see how someone could come to that view, if they were completely unversed in science, philosophy, history, theology, and basic logic, and sadly, most Americans are.

A few of the more common remarks I’ve seen and a few comments;

Hitler was a disciple of Darwin

Interesting, then, that Darwin is never mentioned in Mein Kamph or any major speech or public doctrine of Hitler that I’m aware of. Hitler does repeatedly invoke Christianity, nationalism, and cultural supremacy, all big favorites with the right wing crowd that most pretty much all American creationists belong to.

Hitler merely tried to enact the Darwinist maxim “survival of the fittest”.

Not true. First of all, Darwin’s expression refers explicitly to the way species observably act in a natural setting. This is not a moral imperative, nor did Darwin ever say it should be. While Darwin’s views on race were not exactly enlightened by our standards (though they were significantly advanced for his own times), he never makes any sort of reference to human “races” being gradable. This was, however, a favorite view of many Christians, who used the bible to justify, among other things, the violent dispossession of the American Indians and the transatlantic slave trade.

At any rate, Darwin believed in natural selection as an observable part of nature, nothing more. Saying he believed that it should be applied to human society is like saying that Newton wanted people forcible held to the ground because he believed in gravity. At any rate, what Hitler did is not natural selection, but artificial selection, its opposite. Breeding dogs or horses is an example of a more widespread version of this, controlling traits through selective breeding, much like eugenics.

Without the moral absolute of religion, one has no basis not to murder

Let’s stay away from the very, very obvious fact that Hitler was a proudly avowed Christian, if only for a moment. In my eyes, a strong, unyielding, unexplored “moral absolute” is exactly what caused the Shoah. Deciding to exterminate a race because they are ‘a disease’ is not an act of relativism, it’s an act of very powerful belief. The holocaust didn’t happen because Germans were bored and chose and amoral way to blow off steam, the holocaust was an expression of a very ingrained set of morals.

It seems peculiar to me as well that creationists seem unaware that when Europe was almost entirely Christian, with no evolutionary theory to speak of, there was still plenty of killing to go around. Jews were randomly brutalized and slaughtered regularly, and hatred of Jews was encoded in the books of many prominent Christian theologians. Hitler was not working in a vacuum, but rather followed in the footsteps of men like Martin Luther, who in turn followed in the footsteps of many church policy makers. The inquisition and crusades also took place in the name of Christianity. Look, I’ll throw you righties a bone you’ll eat up. Do you think Muslim terrorists do what they do because their beliefs aren’t strong enough?

By the way, I’m not an atheist so don’t bother with mentioning Stalin, especially because he’s not the point of this, and you know it.

ID should be presented alongside/instead of evolutionary theory in schools to keep children in reverence of life.

Point the first, there’s no evidence that this works and in fact history seems to speak against any idea that creationist thought leads naturally to a respect for life (though I’m sure there are many creationists who are compassionate people). Having the same people urge a respect for life AND the invasion of the middle east is a bit off, but one thing at a time.

Second, ID is not and never will be science. Period, end of story. There’s no more reason to give kids a chance to “figure it out for themselves” in a classroom setting than there is to study phrenology side by side with neurology or flat earth theory with geography.

Science leads you to kill people

Yeah, those scientists who invented the smallpox vaccine sure were heartless bastards. Seriously, not even going to bother with this one.

Faith in the highest and scientific progress are compatible; willful ignorance and scientific knowledge are not.

Responses

Bah. You’ve said it before, and I’m sure you’ll say it again. Science is science and the scientific method is one that does not account for morality or compassion. Fine, good, that is what it is. It means that there is just as much of an imperative to cure diseases as there are to make bigger bombs.

Religion is religion and doesn’t allow for much leeway in redefining it’s own structures, and so in the name of god and love people will kill those that they define as being adverse to their beliefs.

Compassion is a trait that we should all practice. Mutual aid is a scientific fact and a religious quality.

The one thing I’m not particularly sure of is Hitler being a devout Christian. From what I know, Hitler used Christianity as a tool to rally people, but religion did not prosper under the Nazis. In fact, if I recall correctly from what I’ve read, Hitler ultimately ended up forcing priests to teach Mein Kampf and Nazi doctrines, rather than the Bible. There may have been forms of Nazi-Mysticism flying around, but I don’t know enough about that. I’d be glad if you could give me some info on that.

But anyways, regardless of Hitler’s religious affiliation, ANY system or world view can be used to justify mass-murder. If there’s one thing human history has taught us, human beings have always been a species prone to irrational hatred. Religion can be a barrier to this, but so can non-religious ethical systems as well. And both religion and lack of it have been used to justify atrocities. It’s pretty much the dark side of human nature I’d think.

Sever,

If you read Mein Kampf he lays his beliefs directly at the feet of the Christian faith and talks about God a lot. Because Mein Kampf and Christian teachings might have been taught together does negate this.

His base of support in Germany was always the Catholic south of the country, with Northern Germany and places like Berlin always leaning a bit more to the secular/leftist side of things.

As to Intelligent Design, I have to admit I do not know that much about it. I believe in evolution, but I believe that God set it up this way.

I do not use the fact that I think God set up evolution to try to minimise evolution itself or the concept of it.

To me the FACT of evolution is just another wonderful facit of what God has done.

Very nice post. I’ve known so many people who’ve tried to claim Hitler was the product of the relativism of the Weimar Republic, it’s interesting to see someone argue his actions suggest a strict absolutism more akin to faith-based devotion. I think your view of things makes a lot more sense.

ID is non-scientific, and makes for pretty poor theology as well. Like Abu I don’t see any particular contradictions between evolution and theism.

(I meant to say “fanaticism”, not “devotion” >_< ;)

I haven’t read Mein Kampf in 32 years, but I don’t remember thinking that it was a Christian tract. The Nazi propaganda did not focus on Christianity (which of course contradicted what they were doing) but on Romantic notions of a “people” tied to a land (oddly similar to zionist ideology).

I think that the problem with all these arguments laying blame on one doctrine or another is that they give to much power to ideology. In reality, people are always fighting over the same things, land, power, resources, money. Ideology of any sort is only a tool. The Nazis were able to tap into the fears and hatred that the German people had toward international capitalism, which the Nazis personified as Jewish and which the Germans saw as bankrupting them. Meanwhile Hitler saw the Jews as a threat partly because he saw many of them as rebellious potential communists. The Jews were branded either as international capitalists or international communists and the Germans feared both.

Cabbage
I don’t disagree. My point is more about what is not than what is.

Sever
Totally. My point is not to equate Naziism and Christianity, my point is to simply show the absurdity of Christians (and a handful of Jews and Muslims) attempting to lay the blame for the Holocaust in evolutionary theory.

AS
Thanks for shedding a little light on the sociological makeup of Germany at the time, I don’t know too much about that myself.

抱朴
Hitler despised much of the Wiemar regime, so it is indeed odd when people describe him in concordance with it.

Liz
My point is not to blame Christianity for the Holocaust, my point is to address the non-sequitur of invoking science as the culprit. I do think Christianity per se is the culprit, however, Hitler invoked Christianity far, far more than anything even vaguely scientific.

I mean, yeah, right? If anything the absolutism of religion lends itself more to violence in the name of than the inquisitive destruction on the part of science.
But really, are there people arguing about “science” and it’s part in the holocaust? That seems really absurd to me.

People will argue about everything. Christ, man.

Hitler seems to have had a very mixed bag of beliefs. The dude couldn’t handle killing lobsters, was a vegetarian, was known to flirt with yoga and led a lonely life.

According to the book “Black Sun” by Goodricke-Clark, Jung apparently called him an archetypal avatar of Wotan/Odin manifesting chaos in the spirit of the German people. I don’t think this is so far off myself, but then again my own spin on things is kinda… out there.

There are a lot of neo-pagan groups these days, and if you look through them eventually you find the neo-nazi ties. Not that all neo-pagans have these — far from it! But, the idea of connecting to a spiritual lineage via one’s bloodline or homeland can get pretty sticky very quickly.

From my own studies of the Holocaust and the Nazis I think it’s something that we can’t get to the bottom of (although it’s obvious the Nazis systematically liquidated Eastern Europeans and the Jews). It’s basically sorcery. The reason so many people are perpetually fascinated by it is because it’s an endless well with no answer.

Cabbage
I’m actually going to write a full post in response to what you’re saying. Stay tuned.

smoke
Actually, Hitler being a vegetarian is a myth. His most comprehensive biography states that his favorite food was liver dumplings and he did his best to project a “disciplined leader” image but in fact ate all kinds of unhealthy food. Hitler was a weird amalgamation though, and my purpose isn’t to equate Christianity and his weirder beliefs, some of which were quite far out. That being said, saying the guy was a neo-Pagan instead of a Christian doesn’t quite add up to me, since I remember him attacking Heathen Nationalists in Mein Kamph as cowards who would run when the Communists came at them. Obviously asatru, etc, today has a racist subset. But yeah, it’s a mystery. My main point is that IDers need to lay off with their whole silly ass “Darwin=Hitler” bit.

Hrmm, which biography do you recommend?

Robert Payne’s biography is a really good one, and I’ve used John Toland’s (the one I was referring to) as a source for a paper before though never read it in its entirety.

I would recommend “The Nazi Conscience” for an insight into German society before WWII.

Let’s not forget a Christian struggled with the decision to shatter his own moral universe to kill Hitler, and paid for it with his own life.

Thabet
I will look into it that book. Which Christian are you referring to?

Leave a response

Your response:

Categories